The Official Who's Dissapointed With the last Google update thread

[xxxjay]

Now that the dust has settled...who is disappointed with the last google update?

I know a lot of people lost a lot of listings on this last reindex, I lost a few myself, but everall didn't make out that bad.

I was kind of dissapointed to see the spammers holding strong through it and mainstream stuff like HBO and CNN coming up under "Gay Sex" and "Sex Videos".

Feedback?

[Linkster]

Jay - I dont think its over yet - the datacenters are still really different - the PR hasnt been updated at all of them yet and the backlinks havent come across to all of them yet - theres a few filters they havent implemented yet either - probably wont be done for a few days - after the weekend I think :)

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Linkster
Jay - I dont think its over yet - the datacenters are still really different - the PR hasnt been updated at all of them yet and the backlinks havent come across to all of them yet - theres a few filters they havent implemented yet either - probably wont be done for a few days - after the weekend I think :)

Yeah maybe, some of the most obvious spammers are still holding in there. It couldn't be that hard to catch, especially seeing as people are reporting them.

[Bill]

The serps are filled with garbage. It's just another typical google "improvement".

I'm seeing a big increase in nonadult expired domains crammed with spammy pages in the top 20.

[DangerDave]

Not over yet IMO.....

I lost some serious terms.. that are just completely unexplainable... so I don't think it is over yet..

Definitely seeing a huge spammer increase... |angry|

DD

[Ramster]

Google Updates?

[Linkster]

Just checked and there is an update to PR and backlinks sitting on one of the datacenters that isnt showing on the main www, 2 and 3 yet - I really think once those are factored in (cause it looks like alot of people here got more backlinks) there will be some major shifts this weekend

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by DangerDave
Not over yet IMO.....

I lost some serious terms.. that are just completely unexplainable... so I don't think it is over yet..

Definitely seeing a huge spammer increase... |angry|

DD

Yeah - the spam is what bother me. Maybe there's still a filter they have not kicked in yet.

[Linkster]

really in flux - they must be trying something really off the wall - do a search for a term on the normal web search - then do the same on the directory - the results are the same - never been that way before

[ChristyB]

Originally posted by Linkster
really in flux - they must be trying something really off the wall - do a search for a term on the normal web search - then do the same on the directory - the results are the same - never been that way before Off the wall is right - lol

It does seem to have a lot to do with the directory - then not - then yes - then not again - lol it's SO inconsistent.

Many searches are returning bullshit in terms of relevancy and it looks like a lot of the results listed (in all of the datacenters) are absent from the 'live search results'...

And I'm sure they haven't finished dealing with the spam - in fact right now it seems like spam sites have benefited...

Can't believe it's going to stay that way... Mind you - if it does at least it'll make seo easier to understand in future - lol.

I'm sure they have a fair chunk of work left to do yet...

Or then again maybe...

Maybe they just have to upload one more itsy bitsy little equasion and everything will POP perfectly into place - lol
|pink

I think patience is the only answer - or it's off to 'pink elephant land' for all of us :)

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Linkster
really in flux - they must be trying something really off the wall - do a search for a term on the normal web search - then do the same on the directory - the results are the same - never been that way before

That may be sign they are about to stop using / devalueing DMOZ listings. DMOZ's time has come and gone. I can understand why google would do that.

[eatapeach]

i noticed that some of my sites PR went down, some of the sites even dropping all the way to PR0.

please somebody tell me this is just a temporary thing and i'll wake up tomorrow with everything like i want it to be :)

[Freeway]

Im way bummed out.
My best keyword was worth about 6000 hits a month. I was number one for about 9 months. I dont even think Im in the top 100 now. ( insert smilie of me hanging myself from a tree )

[urb]

Google has gone fuckin' mad. |hammer

[Linkster]

Urb :) nahhh- they're just still dancing - watching the results go all over the place - just watched the SERPs for "sex" go from 280 mill to 3 mill then to 59 mill - its gonna get crazier before they're done - cant wait to see the filters for spam come in :) theyve been promising wholesale changes - guess we'll have to see

[urb]

Originally posted by Linkster
Urb :) nahhh- they're just still dancing -

I'll sleep better now. Thanks Linkster. :)

[xxxjay]

yep - there's been another big shuffle in the serps since yesterday

still not making a ton on sense
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=xxx

[Jim]

No...it is not over yet. Or at least it wasn't yesterday. And, I have not seen a difference yet.

[urb]

This doesn't look good to me.....

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=xxx

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by urb
This doesn't look good to me.....

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=xxx

Before that GG was #3 for xxx and I was #8 - now we are way back there. That was my #1 term too.

I think Google is trying to do something where they will show result from non-adult sites up ahead of the adult - I've been noticing that for a while. JUst seems to be bumping it up now.

Those spammers are still in there solidly.

[urb]

That sucks. :(

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by urb
That sucks. :(

Yeah - I pretty much think the goose is cooked, for the time being. The new PRs are assigned - I have several pages that jumped in PR, but droped on SERPS - which proves what I've been saying all along - PR ain't as important as everyone thinks it is.

[Alphawolf]

Anyone check with the 'filter trick':

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=xxx+-asdad&btnG=Google+Search

For a 3 word phrase ya need to put two gibberish filters on like:

kw1 kw2 kw3 -adfdfs -sfsff

And you'll see results without the stupidity.

Maybe it's good not to be in the 1st 1000 listings and that is the 'safe zone' before the next round of filters- I kid myself into thinking.

AW

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Anyone check with the 'filter trick':

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=xxx+-asdad&btnG=Google+Search

For a 3 word phrase ya need to put two gibberish filters on like:

kw1 kw2 kw3 -adfdfs -sfsff

And you'll see results without the stupidity.

Maybe it's good not to be in the 1st 1000 listings and that is the 'safe zone' before the next round of filters- I kid myself into thinking.

AW

Very interesting - I can only hope your safe zone theory is right. The thing that pisses me if is not that Google is bringing up the competetion - it's just I can't really understand what they are doing now.

Nice find though man!

[Alphawolf]

xxxjay,

Wasn't my find. A guy on webmasterworld named 'Kackle' found it.

He calls it a 'dictionary' of phrases- but it seems like a 'phrase blacklist' to me.

It only trips certain phrases. There are so many posts in that Google Update thread it's crazy.

Have seen other people mention that there are SERP's where entire DMOZ lists don't appear.

This is the case for a site I manage which is in a *very* niche market and is only known by one term. In searching 'industry name company' not a single company pops up in Google. Nevermind the site I manage- quite literally *all* companies were ZAPPED from the results.

The #4 spot for 'industry name' previosuly held by the site I manage is now held by a free page on AOL. That site has about 50% of it's links pointing to domains that no longer exist.

I came across an odd datacenter by accident wherein the Google Web Directory was listed at #1 for 'industry name company' and the listings were updated and sorted by PR. Site I mange was #5.

Somethin' wacky going on with the Dmoz data and Google's version of it lately.

I tend to think there's a part II to this update...but maybe not. I haven't seen much change in the data centers over the past 4 days.

<shrug> It's a bit much of a coincidence to have all sites in DMOZ _not_ come up in specific searches.

Everything is just...wrong. :)

[xxxjay]

Alphawolf - I think I had mentioned up somewhere earlier on this thread that I suspected that Google may be severing ties with DMOZ.

I'm sure there is a DMOZ editor or two that will read this and get pissed, but if you think about it - why would anyone spend time reviewing websites if they didn't have an interest at stake...like adding as many their own sites into it as possible.

I've even head of, since only DMOZ editors can approve other DMOZ editors, they will apply to themselves with another email address, approve themselves, and then be controling new cats.

The only way that whole thing could be done fairly is if they paid people that had no interest in the industry they are approving sites for - but then that's just yahoo...

[Jezebel]

I'm sure there is a DMOZ editor or two that will read this and get pissed, but if you think about it - why would anyone spend time reviewing websites if they didn't have an interest at stake...like adding as many their own sites into it as possible.
That's an attitude that a lot of people share - particularly in the Adult industry. The answer to a question like "Why would anybody spend time at dmoz unless there was something in it for them?" can't be explained if someone has to ask the question in the first place. To be a (good) dmoz editor you have to be altruistic.

You know what bugs me about adult webmasters complaining about dmoz editors? Have you got any idea how hard some editors work to keep the Adult section clean from spamming and cheating webmasters and editors? The cleaner our section is for our surfers the better for you guys, as the non-cheating webmasters find their sites listed quicker as we deal with the spammers.

Why do I do it? I LOVE editing. Believe it or not, I really do like reviewing your submissions, sorting them into categories, writing descriptions - dotting the 'i's and crossing the 't's. I'm a nerd, basically. I build ordinary porn sites yet I work all over Adult including the Shopping section, the Link Sites, TGP area, Software, Webmaster Resources. Outside of Adult I tend to work in Society but I've also worked in Shopping and Business and have the permissions necessary to work anywhere I like.

I've even head of, since only DMOZ editors can approve other DMOZ editors, they will apply to themselves with another email address, approve themselves, and then be controling new cats.
|rasta| Since the only editors that can approve new applications are Category Moderators, Metas and Staff, why would anybody at this level need to set themselves up as another editor? Don't believe everything you hear.

|roses|

[Alphawolf]

Jay,

Yeah- DMOZ is a PITA. A site of mine that was submitted 1 YEAR ago and confirmed to be in the correct category is still 'in the que'.

I'm not sure why Google would penalize people for being listed though- that makes no sense.

Hand checking without massive amounts of people and money is not very useful in Internet time.

I never really understood the hand check deal anyways. Once you are in the directory your site is in. They don't check it like once a month to make sure it's still the same- they couldn't.

So, a site that was submitted and accepted a couple years ago could be and probably *is* a totally different site today.

Unless the site is monitored every so often hand checking to get into a category means virtually nothing. At least, I don't understand the rational for it. <shrug>

[Alphawolf]

Jezebel,

>>>I'm a nerd, basically. I build ordinary porn sites yet I work all over Adult including the Shopping section, the Link Sites, TGP area, Software, Webmaster Resources. Outside of Adult I tend to work in Society but I've also worked in Shopping and Business and have the permissions necessary to work anywhere I like.<<<

Isn't an editor supposed to have *nothing* to do with the category they review?

Also, isn't it the case that any single domain is only allowed 2 listings- one in a category and one in Regional? Some sites have more than 2 listings. |angry|


Oh, well- I guess if you get through good adult sites, good for you. :)

[Jezebel]

Isn't an editor supposed to have *nothing* to do with the category they review?
Where did you get that from? Applicants with experience in a category are welcome.

Also, isn't it the case that any single domain is only allowed 2 listings- one in a category and one in Regional? Some sites have more than 2 listings.
Domain? You must mean site. There are some occasions where a site can be listed more than two times, particularly when it has a strong regional, national and international influence but that's not something I ever come across in the Adult/ section. If you've got a beef about sites that have more than two listings, send the URLs to me and I'll take a look at them.

[Alphawolf]

Jezebel,

Where did I get that? Dunno- I think in clicking around to become an editor and reading the initial application.

Rather not report any sites. best not to rock the boat. :)

[Linkster]

In defense of the adult side of DMOZ - and Im not on the staff there- Jezebel and a gaggle of others over there do a fantastic job - especially knowing that its all volunteer - and there are avenues to check a submit you've done to find out the status - Ive dont it myself recently and the response was immediate and helpful.

In the past there have been isolated instances (actually way in the past there were a heck of a lot) of people abusing their positions there - but that seems to have been weeded out pretty well on the adult side - the mainstream side I wont comment on :)

As far as the question about multiple domain entries - I know I have many domains with loads of listings - that comes with the territory of building free sites on the same domain - you can have as many sites as you want on a domain and each is considered separately for DMOZ - as they should be.

Ive seen a lot of bad entries get cleaned out of the adult side as well which in my experience has been good for the biz - the cat editors seem to take a good personal interest in their cats.


the original issue with the DMOZ directory and Google - I dont believe that Google has brought in a good RDF for a while - the results look like Google is trying to parse the database with filters that arent responding correctly - and unlike the past when they did all of this on a datacenter that nobody knew about before they made it live, so many know about all of the datacenters now that Google has given up trying to do it in the background and just lets whatever they have at the moment go live

I have to believe, and based on the hard results that appear on reloads, that the update of the directory, the PR update and a few other things are not done - and wont be for a few days.

Forgot - actually I believe the cat editors are encouraged to have experience in the category they are editing - and are allowed to add their own sites if they fit the cat.

[dallasdeb]

I applied to be a DMOZ editor in the 'For Women' category a few months ago and got accepted, in spite of the fact that my main area in the biz is 'For Women'. Since then I have applied for other categories and been accepted.

One of the main things I have noticed is how hard DMOZ editors actually work, the job is enormous and they have to contend with cheats, spammers and massive queues of sites waiting to get listed. If you are wondering why your sites take so long to get get listed, I would imagine its because there are too many sites and not enough editors to do the job.

Want to get your sites listed faster? Then apply to become an editor and do it yourself. But before you can do that you must clean up the sites in front of you. Cos if you cheat you will get thrown out. In spite of all the things you might read about DMOZ, the editors in charge keep a close eye on what is going on and editors who cheat dont last too long. And if you find a site that breaks the rules, report it and it WILL get checked out.

If you dont have the time or the inclination to become an editor then stop whingeing and let the editors that are there do their job.

|santa|

[xxxjay]

It's a simple equation:

Having even one site in the category you are editing = bias

I doubt in the history of DMOZ there has never been a time when an editor has rejected his own site.

[Linkster]

Jay - Im not so sure if Id call it bias - I think Id call it a perk :) and a well deserved one for taking the time to be a volunteer in my book
Now if they were to completely dominate a cat with just their sites thats a different game - and gets editors booted

[dallasdeb]

You know something XXXJay? Thats crap. Not only have I rejected my own site I have had to delist sites that belong to friends of mine in the biz!! You dont know what you are talking about.

My site did not fit the DMOZ guidelines and I was not willing to change it to comply so I flicked it. If I had listed sites that were not compliant I would have been kicked out on my ass by now

If you want to make a difference then become an editor and make a difference. If all you want to do is discredit the work of the editors that are working their butts off so that your sites can get listed (presuming of course they fall within the guidelines), then go and do it somewhere else.

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by dallasdeb
You know something XXXJay? Thats crap. Not only have I rejected my own site I have had to delist sites that belong to friends of mine in the biz!! You dont know what you are talking about.

My site did not fit the DMOZ guidelines and I was not willing to change it to comply so I flicked it. If I had listed sites that were not compliant I would have been kicked out on my ass by now

If you want to make a difference then become an editor and make a difference. If all you want to do is discredit the work of the editors that are working their butts off so that your sites can get listed (presuming of course they fall within the guidelines), then go and do it somewhere else.

God you DMOZ people are touchy. Ok, yeah really, I must be wrong nothing shady ever goes on at DMOZ...

NOT!

[dallasdeb]

Originally posted by xxxjay
God you DMOZ people are touchy.

I wonder why

|zzzzzzzzz

[Alphawolf]

Regarding the multiple listings, I wasn't speaking of free domains.

Example- Salon.com has 689 DMOZ listings.

WMW used to have like 7 or 8, now just 4.

Mystique-magazine.com has 3.

It does make sense if a portion of the site is strong and suited for an additional category, it should be listed.

But a listing for like every other review someone does? Come on. ;)

PlayBoy has 10 listings.

Reviews_and_Previews seems an often used category to create multiple listings.

PlayBoy has a PlayStation 2 listing:

http://directory.google.com/Top/Games/Video_Games/Action-Adventure/Survival_Horror/Silent_Hill_Series/Silent_Hill_2/Reviews_and_Previews/PlayStation_2/

So, if I do reviews of products, games, etc...on my site it will not be a problem to get listed eventually? |shake|

Adameve.com have 3 listings. Man, http://directory.google.com/Top/Adult/Business/Opportunities/

Opportunities? Come on.

Why is it a site cannot get a legit listing for a Web Forum under the right category? Chats_and_Forums

Google has 76 listings.

Microsoft- 932 DMOZ listings. (Just 246 Y! listings)

Amazon- 334 listings (just 39 Y! listings)

Ivillage: DMOZ: 611 listings, Y! Directory: 126 listings

MapQuest: DMOZ: 1014 listings , Y! Directory: 8 listings

So, essentially, if I add an E-zine to my adult site with quality content I should get a listing for each and every review, right?

msn.com DMOZ: 2632 listings

Each movie review gets a listing.

If I have a section in a webforum or sub domain dediciated to Adult movie reviews, i can get a listing for each review?

If one just goes down the list of sites via PR:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=http%3A

And checks dmoz listings they all have rediculous amounts of listings across the board for the most diverse categories. If PlayBoy can get a listing under PlayStation 2 category, would my site be able to?

Having a couple thousand links replicated 100's of times sure comes in handy. :)

Oddly, joe-schmoe sites gets scruntized for everything. What's the deal with that? |santa|

[Linkster]

AlphaWolf - actually anyone can do exactly the same thing those guys are doing - an example:
If I take a domain that has something to do with pornstars and I build the main site from the root - I can get that listed in DMOZ.
Now I take a directory and put up a little subsite about Jenna J and add two galleries of 10 pics - and then get that listed in the image galleries section of DMOZ - and can do that hundreds of times with different pornstars
Of course all the while every one of those little subsites has a link back to the main site and the main site has a good sitemap or contents page that lists each of those subsites - an easy way to naturally move page rank around and a good surf for the users
And DMOZ will list each of those subsites usually - I only say usually as sometimes you will run into someone else that has that picture set already on DMOZ :)

As far as the large sites like msn etc. - Im not sure if building a portal and submitting subpages on varying subjects would fly - but it sure seems to :) I dont think DMOZ would have a leg to stand on if they declined your subtopics and not the msns

Very important to remember - their policies dont say anything against submitting multiple sites from the same domain :)

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Linkster
AlphaWolf - actually anyone can do exactly the same thing those guys are doing - an example:
If I take a domain that has something to do with pornstars and I build the main site from the root - I can get that listed in DMOZ.
Now I take a directory and put up a little subsite about Jenna J and add two galleries of 10 pics - and then get that listed in the image galleries section of DMOZ - and can do that hundreds of times with different pornstars
Of course all the while every one of those little subsites has a link back to the main site and the main site has a good sitemap or contents page that lists each of those subsites - an easy way to naturally move page rank around and a good surf for the users
And DMOZ will list each of those subsites usually - I only say usually as sometimes you will run into someone else that has that picture set already on DMOZ :)

As far as the large sites like msn etc. - Im not sure if building a portal and submitting subpages on varying subjects would fly - but it sure seems to :) I dont think DMOZ would have a leg to stand on if they declined your subtopics and not the msns

Very important to remember - their policies dont say anything against submitting multiple sites from the same domain :)

Right there with what you are saying is where 90% of the abuse in DMOZ lies in the sub-site listing shit.

Seems like i have to wait a year for a root listing and these subsites pop up right and left.

[Linkster]

Jay - have you tried posting on their board to find out why it hasnt been listed? Usually you'll get a response pretty quickly :)

[Alphawolf]

Linkster,

>>Jay - have you tried posting on their board to find out why it hasnt been listed? Usually you'll get a response pretty quickly<<

I have. Standard answer I get is that it's there. It's still sitting in the que with quite a few others. I ask for even a remote ETA like a month, 4 months less than 6 months...the answer is they can't provide any ETA at all.

I *did* get a regional listing within a couple weeks though.

I'd think as an editor I'd check out sites people post on resource zone because there''s far less chance it's a spam site if people are taking the time to follow up.

I do hope the adult side is more swift. |santa|

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Linkster
Jay - have you tried posting on their board to find out why it hasnt been listed? Usually you'll get a response pretty quickly :)

What's the url of the board?

[Linkster]

Originally posted by Alphawolf


I do hope the adult side is more swift. |santa|

My experience only - but yes a heck of a lot quicker :)

[Alphawolf]

Jay,

http://www.resource-zone.com/

[urb]

I keep posting this every time someone mentions Dmoz......

The Adult editors are loads faster than all the other Dmoz sections put together.

[SomeCreep]

This google update is unique. I see "news" and "health sites" coming up for certain adult keywords that were once flooded with legit adult website listings. Horrible update. I hope it doesnt stay this way.

[GeorgeTH]

I actually dared to write a complaint to Google today... (scary!)

Before the re-indexing I already faced heaps of sites ahead of mine spamming my site name! - now it's absolutely redicilous:
My site TropicHeat.com slipped to position 145 for 'tropicheat' - and almost all 144 results before are spamming my gallery headers (and the majority redirect to the same full-page NastyDollars ad), for "Tropic Heat" in two words it's even worse: position 717 - and almost 600 pages in front spam my name (which I have registered since 1999!) with re-direct porn sites or warez sites...
I'm publishing 'free porn series', and have done so since 1998 (can probably claim to be the first), and until the re-indexing my site was in the top 20 for 'porn series' (position #8 most of the time, position #1 was another of my sites [which I didn't deserve...LOL]), more importantly I know most sites who publish decent series or links to series, and before the re-indexing I thought all results in the top 40-50 were actually representing decent sites with no cheats or pop-up-redirection hell... Now: in the top 40 you won't find a single site offering a single uncensored porn series (you might find heaps of references to series written or filmed about the topic of child porn - but that's it).
|pcsucks|

So I sat down and pointed these things out in a letter to search-quality@google.com - the (automated) reply is at least promising:

Thank you for writing to Google.

We read all of the email we receive and try to send personal responses to each message.

This note is just to let you know that we've received your letter, and you'll hear from us soon. We appreciate your taking the time t
contact us.

Thank you for using Google.


Regards,

The Google Team


I just thought somebody has to tell them they got it wrong... |jackinthe

[Alphawolf]

GeorgeTH,

>>I just thought somebody has to tell them they got it wrong...

There are a couple *1000* messages on webmasterworld.com telling them that every day.

Unless 25% of page 1 results are very much off topic the average surfer will just never know or care.

Lots of speculation from some very smart people, but it's all just that.

This is a radical change that caught a lot of people off guard and plenty of clean sites have been wiped from the results.

In the top two AdWords for phrases *all* companies were removed from the results where they had previously held the top spots.

Let's be honest- Google became a virtual monopoly and now they can do what they damn well please. Average surfers will continue to think Google is good unless drastically off-topic results are shown.

The only good thingis that once Y! swicthes to Ink a good chunk of the pie will be split up.

They have some really sophisticated, but immature technology via their purchase of Applied Semantics.

Nothing seems to make sense, and what is reported from one person is countered by others.

Even people who have been posting and reading there for 3 years are trying to gain a hold on the new results.

Probably the most disheartening posts are from people who were sqeeky clean and worked thier asses of playing by the rules and their sites have vanished from thier primary phrases. POOF.

If the results stick more than not- this is an entirely different animal that requires a very light touch of optimization as we know it and more natural linking only from related sites.

Themes.

The entire 'get links with anchor text in your phrase' is dead...if it sticks.

Someone reported some changing on a datacenter resembling pre Florida (as this update has been come to be known) results.

But I didn't see any changes last I checked around 7PM.

Then again it would be Google like to come out with some new filters/algo changes on a Holiday...

<shrug>

[GeorgeTH]

|waves| I was sure I wasn't the only one complaining - just that this really pissed me off today, also from the user point of view:

I needed some purely statistical data (absolutely not porn related!) and simply couldn't find it on Google (which used to be my 1st choice in the last 2-3 years). I finally went to Lycos (where I know how to do a specific search like that - unlike Altavista for some weird reason) and on all 5 different topics I got what I needed from the top 6 or 7 listings...

And my stats are now showing that I get more se traffic from Altavista (once I subtract the searches for mydomain.com - why are people doing that?) than from Google! Yesterday the order was Altavista, MSN Search (which was never big with my sites) and finally 3. came Google - and I wrote them this fact too - after all Google are in a competative market!

As far as I know they want to float stock next year, and we all know what happened to Excite and Go once they got things wrong...

[urb]

The reason IMO that Google is showing some pretty stupid serps is down to filters which I think have been applied to various targeted searches.

I've read a load of boards and Google have some serious bridges to mend with webmasters in general.

Rumours are that Google are attempting to boost their advertising revenue, ahead of their IPO.

The following will not prove that filters have been applied totally, but it is an interesting development.......

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=xxx+-wobbakin&btnG=Google+Search

Notice that I've searched for xxx and told Google to ignore pages which contain a word I made up (nonsense word)

Now check out what Joe Surfer gets.....

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=xxx

[Alphawolf]

You guys can just use this too:

http://www.scroogle.org/

You guys want to see a good example of companies being removed?

punch in:

mystery shopping

Now...even more to the point:

mystery shopping company

You'd think with a query like that I'm pretty much telling Google I want to see mystery shopping companies. |zzzzzzzzz

In a niche field like this they are only known for a handful of terms.

And the terms that vanquished pages just so happen to be the Top 2 for Overture and AdWords- and the only meaningful 'money phrases.

While this is Overture Suggestions, AdWords is similar in traffic/CTR, etc...

Searches done in October 2003
Count Search Term
22772 mystery and shopping (was #4- now not in 1st 1,000)
1127 mystery shopping company (was #2 now not in first 1,000)
988 mystery shopping job (not helpful)
293 association mystery provider shopping (not helpful)
254 frankfurt mystery shopping (not helpful)
228 mystery shopping services (_FIRST_ 'money phrase' Google allows companies to be listed in.)

And no- the lower search terms do not convert more highly. After a year plus of asking how people found their company it was damn near *always* that top phrase just remove the 'and'.

The "good" thing- it was a wash. As you can see near 90% of those who were in the Top 100 are no longer for that industries top phrase.

Since this Florida update the results from Overture/Adwords has been great because potential clients cannot see any companies on Page 1...so the Ads have a higher CTR now.

Is it a math 'bug'- try telling 89 business owners this when the selective phrases that nuked companies were the Top 2 most competitive for their industry.

As some have pointed out some very competitve phrases haven't been effected like 'web hosting' or 'web design'

<shrug>

It's good to be a monopoly, eh?

Happy turkey day to those of us in the USA.

[GeorgeTH]

I simply keep on pestering them!

Today I needed some info on a company listed on the Australian Stock Exchange, called "Deutsche Divers": apart from one stock analysis (with no further info) all I got were links to scuba diving sites and a few more stock tickers on page 3-4. Believe me: I tried all sorts of different ways, until no useful results for ["Deutsche Divers" +company -scuba] sent me straight to the link 'help us improve'!
|banghead|

In the meantime I had found on MSN Search what I was looking for, and of course I told Google this (with search syntax).

[xxxjay]

From all of the reasearch I have been doing, I have come to the opinion that this is not about filters at all. This is about the Google IOP and selling adwords. What would be an easier group to target than porn webmasters (and to be fair, from what I've read it isn't limited to porn) for potential cumstomers to sell advertising to.

For the big money terms, and I expect this list to expand as the months go on, you are going to have ponying up.

They have to make money - I can understand that. The problem I've always had with SE selling spots is they don't deliver the best answer - just who's paying most for it.

That's business - ladies and gentlemen.

[xxxjay]

I would like to retract part of my last statement, and would like to say that there is definently a filter in effect.

Google knows that we know how to jockey the results and the just threw a massive wrench in it.

[Alphawolf]

Jay,

Yeah. It's a whole new ball game with Google unless they update again before Xmas and bring back results similar to the past- before this update.

One thing I don't get if it's AdWords based- why would they leave some high competition phrases alone like 'web hosting' or 'web design company'?

They must have known people would be super pissed at them across the board. Why not initiate all phrases at once?

Man, I've read nearly *every* theory out there and there is always something that doesn't synch up with what I watch.

Some results are just plain WACKED OUT.

Look at the #1 spot for this search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=calgary+web+design&btnG=Google+Search

WTF? Out of 380k pages an Ice Hockey site is #1. LOL.

Most of the results do seem relevant though. But why is that site, under this algo #1? I don't think even GOOGLE knows.

[xxxjay]

Alphawolf - have you seen the trick to see you the SERPs without the filters? There is some heavy filtering going on - it's just catching the wrong shit.

[Freeway]

Originally posted by xxxjay
This is about the Google IOP and selling adwords.
Yeps.
Gotta keep those shareholders happy now.
This time next year google is going to be a pornwebmasters memory.

[Alphawolf]

Jay,

You mean besides the one I posted here? This is the best way to see the deal:

http://www.scroogle.org

There is a good article from that page:

http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/3114531

Generally, Google sucks.

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Jay,

You mean besides the one I posted here? This is the best way to see the deal:

http://www.scroogle.org

There is a good article from that page:

http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/3114531

Generally, Google sucks.

I made #1 and #2 on scroogle for "xxx" - maybe we can start convincing porn surfers to search there instead.

I knew the IPO was bad news. Now, here's the proof.

I don't understand why they just don't start slinging some banner spots like everyone else.

[urb]

Like I said before No tits, no hits

Something like 1 in every 4 searches are sex related. If Google filters too much, or if we get some kinda Froogle/Nightsurf, then Google will drop in the rankings like a lead balloon....... and they know it.

[RawAlex]

I think what has happened here is that Google has gotten tired of SEOs over doing it again, and having highly optimized pages come up at the top of all the best searches. There is nothing natural (Google's apparent goal) in SERPs that have nothing but the highest dollar companies because they could afford better SEOs. There is also no benefit to have the top sites all redirecting traffic to brokers (and I saw this on some non-adult terms, a google listing leading to another SE page results for a pay per click company).

So google picked 500-5000 keywords and phrases, and basically TOSSED the top 100 or so listing out the door.

Yes, it sucks. If you have prided yourself on building the types of pages that end up in the top 10 of searches by using good but heavy SEO techniques, you are probably pissed off this week because your traffic dropped.

What Google doesn't seem to understand is that part of the reason google is so popular and so "on the top of the market" is because it is the target we all have been after for years. When they start taking petty vengance on good SEO, they will find themselves less in demand from our side... and we will start to recommend other things to surfers too.


Alex

[GeorgeTH]

What's this http://www.scroogle.org/ site about?

I don't know it, and everytime I have tried to follow the link from here all I get is the dreaded "Cannot find weapons of mass destructuction" (http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/) - page - - - oops: I mean of course: "cannot find server" - page!

Is this site blocked to overseas visitors?
The latest secret weapon to give Americans world dominance?

(Here we go again - LOL)... |peace|

[ChristyB]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Man, I've read nearly *every* theory out there and there is always something that doesn't synch up with what I watch.
Some results are just plain WACKED OUT.I agree 100%.

I've read hundreds of posts, theories, seo threads, articles & opinions, checked out hundreds of top listings for various keywords - there doesn't seem to be any sort of pattern and EVERY theory I've heard can be disproved after a few searches.

Originally posted by RawAlex
I think what has happened here is that Google has gotten tired of SEOs over doing it again, and having highly optimized pages come up at the top of all the best searches. The 'penalising 4 heavy seo' theory is the hardest to understand IMO, after all the existing set of 'accepted seo techniques' was developed by wm's to follow googles own method of discerning the highest relevant online content... To remove pages that have - by their own methods - proven to have the 'most relevant' results is just plain fucking silly! (Hmmmmm - "Dear Mr Google - RU just plain fucking silly?"... maybe you're right - lol)

Originally posted by RawAlex
So google picked 500-5000 keywords and phrases, and basically TOSSED the top 100 or so listing out the door.
The problem is they haven't...

Some have gone, some have moved, some have remained... Penisbot still ranks #1 for 'porn' for example!

Hi Jay :) - I think you were right when you retracted that statement, even the 'deliberate attempt to promote ppc' theory falls apart for many phrases...
I'm not suprised you're pissed though - the results for the term xxx are a complete lot of bollocks (pardon me) - ip address finders (inserted '.xxx.xxx' for the last 6 digits) - how the fuck is that relevant when searching for xxx?

Glad to see you still have some good high listings though :)

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Jay,
Yeah. It's a whole new ball game with Google unless they update again before Xmas and bring back results similar to the past- before this update. Not only a whole new game but the rules appear to differ for almost every keyword or phrase and unless they fix it quickly the several hundred theories now being optimised for will result in the undoing of years of googles own best work IMHO!

PS: Dear Mr Google |pissleft| - Merry fucking christmas...

[ChristyB]

George TH,

I'm in the UK and I can get it...

It shows - in theory - the results as they would be without the latest set of filters applied...

The problem with it is that - as usual quite a few domains disappeared from their listings when the dance started - and were not replaced yet - (even in their 'removed positions') - so it's only real values are:
1/. To prove that the listings are 'doctored' (which you can see by using a server search tool anyway) - and -
2/. To give you that extra 'adrenalin rush' when you feel yourself dropping off!

[RawAlex]

Christyb: the problem with "proven seo techniques" is that if you combine enough of the in one place, you can create dominating pages that have little or nothing to do with terms searched. People are then turning those searches around and moving them to other PPC engines, and away you go.

Overuse of seo techniques, no matter how accepted those techniques are on an individual cases basis will sooner or later result in what you are seeing: the SE people freaking out and taking some very harsh action to quell the problem.

One of the things that makes me laugh a bit is that many of the threads (including some of the posts in this one) suggest that Google somehow might owe someone a good listing because they decoded the methods used by Google. Doesn't anyone realize that this is EXACTLY what Google is trying to avoid? they want to give good results for real sites, not bad results for good SEO techniques.

Remember also the great theory of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy(paraphrased): When the answer to life, the universe, and everything is figured out, the entire universe is replaced with something even more complicated and fiendish. It is said that this has happened a number of times already.

Once the Google math is figured out, and clearly it has been, the whole system gets chucked out the window and replaced.

I hope people are out there madly trying to optimize for this, because I am sure that the next update will be even more fucked up, and the heavy SEO people will probably once again be less than pleased.

Alex

[xxxjay]

I've been reading some things about the OOP (Over Optimization Penelty)...Google usuually is pretty good about penalizing people or banning for things that should be wrong i.e.: link farms, expired domains, and cross linking. If theye are going to penalize you for building a good spider friendly site - that is just retarded and I even think they know that. What are you supposed to do, just build a half ass site and expect the competetion to link it? Is that how you get to the top? I hope not.

I suspect the truth is somewhere between:

1. They have profit hungry IPOs that want to sling more adwords.

and

2. They went a little too far with their spam filtering, and in fact left all of the REAL SPAMMERS right up there

Also, don't feel single out - apperently this isn't just limited to adult stuff, though the adult busiiness my be bearing the brunt of it.

[ChristyB]

Alex - I understand where you're coming from - but aren't there just as likely just as many cloaked pages, redirects etc in a list of 'non-optimised sites'?

The 'google owes me' thing - I agree with you - they dont owe anybody anything - although I suppose one could argue that - since seo techniques were developed in order to give google what they seemed to want (in terms of content) it's a little unfair to penalise the people who have followed their lead!

As for their 'throwing out the whole system' every time the world figures out how to 'abuse them'... I just can't believe they would deliberately reverse years of honing their algorythms towards ultra-relevant content just to fuck with seo peoples heads - lol

I think Jay has it closest with point number 2 - I'm sure they've fucked up big time - the results are not only "super non-relevant" in many cases but still contain some atrocious spam (go figure) and they seem to have trouble with their 'page versions' - their directory listings have been flipping back & forth between up-to-date pages and lists that are months old & poor old googlebot has been working his li'l ass off for weeks :)

The point with the optimising scenario is that - the gist of seo opinion now seems to lean towards "de-optimising".

I'm gonna wait a while yet anyway - like most others I'm getting just as much traffic in total - just on different search terms...
I can say for sure that the terms I'm being found under are not 'as relevant' as those I've lost my listings in though - they're mostly obscure phrases that appear once in 2,000 odd pages - lol - that's progress I guess!

[urb]

Originally posted by GeorgeTH
Is this site blocked to overseas visitors?


Just out of interest, who can't access Scroogle (http://www.scroogle.org/)?

If you can't, maybe you can read this (http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/3114531) instead.

[GeorgeTH]

This entire Google thing is getting weirder by the minute - like as if they only tried to penalise some particular terms.

Like I said before: I lost my #1 spot for "Porn Series" - I'm not even in the Top 1,000 anymore!
Nothing major really; according to Overture some 1,000 people look it up per month... I rather regret that I lost a position among the Top 50 for the stand-alone "Porn" - that hurts!
BUT: today I found (back tracking from counter stats) that I still hold #1 position for "Sexy Porn Series" and #2 position for "Teen Porn Series"...

You explain this!? (unless of course the dance hasn't finished...)

Another thing which really annoys me is my ranking for my main site under it's own name! Last month (according to Overture) 433 searches were done for "tropicheat" - my site TropicHeat.com (est.1999!) ranks 181 for "tropicheat" - most sites in front of me are spamming my name!
|banghead|

[urb]

Hello? is anybody there?

http://search-engine-goldmine.com/analysis.html

[Alphawolf]

specific terms- yep. That is what it seems.

Don't believe there is a over optimization penalty simply because in certain phrases 90% of sites were knocked out.

I can tell you 100%- that most of the sites knocked out of a phrase were not optimized at all.

That link URB posted shows things pretty clearly.

Google can do what they want since they are a virtual monopoly.

Actually, they can do what they want anyways...

Anything with 'company' after the keywords seems to have a very high knock out rate- like 80%-90%.

And Joe Surfer can find what he wants because people simply have to load up on AdWords/Overture.

So, a commercial query may not bring up comanies in the 'natural' results, but they will find the Advertising.

I read on another board that someone's AdWords spending went up 1900%. Why? Since there used to be some commercial results in the 'natural' results a lot of people ignored the Ads.

Now, *only* AdWords and Overture ads are relevant for many commercial searches. And too many casual suerfers are clicking on the ads. CTR way up, but conversions and ROI is way down.

Yep- this sucks big time. Especially in searches FOR a company where Google locked out all companies.

[Alphawolf]

ChrstyB,

The point with the optimising scenario is that - the gist of seo opinion now seems to lean towards "de-optimising".

Hmm...yeah, but- I haven't seen many reports of success in doing this...yet. Especially if it's from a domain that has been tossed out of the first 1,000 results.

[xxxjay]

I wouldn't de-optimize anything, unless you are doing something obviouly shady...wait one second - do sometthing really shady - they have all of the top spot now anyway - lol.

There's some good points here:
http://search-engine-goldmine.com/analysis.html

PPC shit sucks. Surfer that don't even know the difference between PPC or the "real" results. Google consistantly delivered good results. That's why they blew up.

This just really left room for some competetion. IMO

[ChristyB]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
ChrstyB,
Hmm...yeah, but- I haven't seen many reports of success in doing this...yet. Especially if it's from a domain that has been tossed out of the first 1,000 results. Me neither - lol...

Then again I haven't seen many reports of success in doing anything to retrieve lost rankings since 'Florida' happened... everybody is panicking and looking for reasons / answers (understandably).

The one thing that causes me the most hassle & wasted time is 'seo gurus' who preach as facts what are really only guesses :(

urb - that article is very interesting - 'clumsy attempt' is the 'keyword' there though... whatever the hell they tried to do it sure has been clumsy!

Jay,
I wasn't doing anything 'shady' - had a nicely balanced index page when I last optimised it - then I added a lot of link exchanges (most of them included my keywords) - when I checked my concentration the other day the count for 'porn' had increased from 16% to 26% - lol (the same for several other phrases) - so now I'm one of those spamming bastards too!
I've since reduced it a little but I don't want to make any major attempt to de/re-optimise because I'm sure they haven't finished with this dance (although they may well take some time out to work on the problems) - If I make changes I'll never know for sure whether that had any bearing...
It's amazing how a few link exchanges can change the balance of words on a page though |doh|

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by ChristyB

Jay,
I wasn't doing anything 'shady' - had a nicely balanced index page when I last optimised it - then I added a lot of link exchanges (most of them included my keywords) - when I checked my concentration the other day the count for 'porn' had increased from 16% to 26% - lol (the same for several other phrases) - so now I'm one of those spamming bastards too!
I've since reduced it a little but I don't want to make any major attempt to de/re-optimise because I'm sure they haven't finished with this dance (although they may well take some time out to work on the problems) - If I make changes I'll never know for sure whether that had any bearing...
It's amazing how a few link exchanges can change the balance of words on a page though |doh|

I'm not saying you are doing anything shady. My SE traffic actaully went up with "Florida" - I just lost a few big terms. The people are just having to type more obsure search patterns to find the porn now.

[Alphawolf]

>>>Then again I haven't seen many reports of success in doing anything to retrieve lost rankings since 'Florida' happened... everybody is panicking and looking for reasons / answers (understandably).<<<

Really, I wouldn't expect to see that info shared. If you found a loophole through Google's traps, would you post it all over the net? ;)

I'd expect over time some common factors start to pop up. I doubt this will be a quick fix sorta deal. :(

>>>The one thing that causes me the most hassle & wasted time is 'seo gurus' who preach as facts what are really only guesses<<<

Yeah- but it's good in a way, since people can compare notes and come to some sort of general conclusion. I think most know they aren't facts, but guesses based upon experience.

The biggest problem is that nobody can agree on anything because it almost seems like each results page has it's own set of rules..with a bit of random results tossed in for good measure.

I just keep thinking of those ubber dorks in thier casual outfits sitting on their bean bag chairs, eating free lunch, getting massages while at work, all the while knowing they will get some SERIOUS money when Google IPO's.

Doesn't matter at all if they wiped out 90% of the top 100 sites from their respective phrases. They laugh and go eat their free lunch then get thier free massage.

Also, the general media views SEO as 'cheating' more than not. That's why the New York Post titled an article something along the lines of "NO MORE FREE LUNCH FOR FREE LOADERS", or something to that effect.

I recall in some forum where i picked a nickname with 'seo' in it. Someone commented "So, you're one of those people who puts up a Britteny Spears site but when clicked on it takes us to a porn site, huh?"

There's no in between with most non web people. SEO=scum/spam/redirects

Only thing different this update is that it took out a lot of clean sites...sites that weren't optimized in any way shape or form.

Somewhat ironic that GOOGLE rode the wave of good SEO's trying to get relevant sites to the top of on target phrases for a couple years...then dumped us for the juicey money phrases and left the scraps only.

OK- sorry for the rant. :)

[DangerDave]

This thread needs more unfounded opinion , baseless speculation and crying SEOs.....

Deal with it and move on people...

DD

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by DangerDave
This thread needs more unfounded opinion , baseless speculation and crying SEOs.....

Deal with it and move on people...

DD

SIR, YES, SIR

[ChristyB]

Jay - I know you didn't direct that at me, just thought it's make you smile :)

Alphawolf - nice rant - (and you're right of course).

DD - crying seo's - lol - what's an seo? (oh yeah I remember... one of those people who puts up a Britney Spears site etc etc) :)

..... how to deal with it? That's the question :)

[RawAlex]

Actually, the entire thing is a plot by terr-ists to make us go crazy, and turn on ourselves and our leaders. Google has actually been taken over by bin hiding, and this is the result.

That enough specualtion, DD?

Alex
|jester|

[Alphawolf]

DangerDave,

Not sure how the quotes under our nicknames are picked (# of posts or just random?) but for that post you got a good one.

:)

This is the search engine section. Look at the thread title. It's a place to rant.

It's not easy and actually impossible for any curious SEO'er to 'get over it'.

Entire industries have been wiped out during this update. OK- over dramatic...they switched to all Overture/AdWords- but that cannot be sustained for long.

Probably worse than that- is the fact a couple years of knowledge is down the tubes. Maybe not the core parts, but most of it. That's a hard pill to swallow, but it's starting to digest now.

It *is* a formula and eventually a few people will get into the meat of it.

But, for sure there are only so many hours in a day and it's probably best suited to building websites.

adding: Also, if you've done work strictly as SEO, clients want a game plan. They don't get over it. ;) The saving grace is that all their competitors was knocked off the index as well.

RawAlex- Plot to make us go crazy? Sign me up.

[eatapeach]

Originally posted by Alphawolf
Also, if you've done work strictly as SEO, clients want a game plan. They don't get over it. ;) The saving grace is that all their competitors was knocked off the index as well.
i really feel for the SEO people who have to explain to cranky businesspeople why they took money to get a site well ranked and now it's gone from the listings.

thank goodness i only have to answer to myself.

[Alphawolf]

eatapeach,

Luckily, I wised up quickly regarding web design and SEO. Why be a chef in the kitchen when you can own the restaurants?

;)

I think this is a trend as per some other boards SEO related.

The adult site will actually be my first baby that is all my own.

Thing is- with no client limitations like timeline or budget, I go off on tangents design wise. And the artwork/color combos that looked killer at 3:40AM somehow tranform after sleeping into just plain "What the FUCK was I thinking with THIS SHIT???"

6+ hours down the drain. Oh, well- the PNG's will come in handy for other projects. :)

[xxxjay]

Originally posted by eatapeach

thank goodness i only have to answer to myself.

I barely take outside clients anymore myself. When I do I ask for an outragous amount and explain up front that anything (such as this) can happen.